Mike
I have tried to debate with you on this site for well over a year now. But here on your own web site you deny that facts are facts. You deny that what is literally written means what it literally says and you deny that lies are lies. You even deny that analogies are analogies.. And the list of what you refuse to engage with could go on.
Now you do not wish me to call you a pseudo scholar for such behaviour – yet you say I have created a supermyth.
You have written here in your website: that I am….
“….creator and promulgator of an elaborate set of myths and supermyths of your own. You claim to be busting the myth, deliberately set up by Darwin and credulously believed by Darwinists ever since, that no-one read Matthew’s book. But the very existence of the myth you are busting is itself a myth. It’s not just a case of de-bunking the de-bunker of the myth, but de-bunking the very idea that there is a “myth and supermyth” narrative in the first place. It really is Alice-in-Wonderland rabbit-hole territory.”
You said I have created a Supermyth.
Now I have challenged you – to go off the pages of your own website – where we have ALREADY held the debate (if you can call denying facts and refusing to answer questions debating) you wish to have yet again on your website where only you decide what can and cannot be said, where you chose what you do and what you have so many times refused to answer.
I have challenged you now to do something bigger, better and more scholarly/ I have challenged you in no uncertain terms to put up or shut up in a public academic forum that will be filmed and disseminated world wide.
I am calling you out on your assertions of fact. Assertions you have made about me. But you are refusing to engage in a public academic debate on academic territory. Instead, you are asking to continue the same old thing you keep on doing with the facts, to seek to conceal them, here on your own website. I wish to expose that behaviour. I will expose that behaviour.
I say it looks like you are very afraid to face me in public on camera in debate in a place where your refusal to answer questions and refusal to admit facts will be exposed for the World to see. Why would that be Dr Mike Weale?
If, as you have claimed so boldly and confidently, above, I have created an supermyth then what better way for you to silence that supermyth in public than by exposing it and my ability to defend my position?
And I mean in public – where you cannot hide by fact denial – where you will not be allowed to hide by a systematic failure to face the facts in the same way you have done on this website time and time again.
Here is my answer to you for the question you asked in place of actually answering mine: I have absolutely no intention of wasting my time debate facts that you deny are facts on your own website again and again with you and trying to get you to answer questions you refuse to answer here. So I have challenged you to an academic debate off this website.
You have an academic title and position and so do I. We both work for universities. Let us take this debate now onto a university campus – or other esteemed place. I have no fear of doing that – so why do you fear it Mike? What is it you fear Mike? Is it the facts Mike?
To deal with – and to expose – what I will claim by reference to your published and academically fully archived published behaviour on this site I will expose the hard data of what I will claim is your persistent evasion of the facts and what I will, with respect, claim is your denial of the facts and I will do so in order to challenge you to support your serous claims against me that I have created a supermyth, I think that is quite fair and reasonable.
I have openly and honestly – in no uncertain terms – challenged you to debate this serious issue with me.
Yours is a serious and published academic allegation. I have given you the wonderful opportunity to be open and scholarly on this issue. Therefore I have challenged you to go with me before an academic and public audience and to have our debate on this serious allegation you have made filmed and disseminated as far and as wide as possible. And I wish to do this to expose your behaviour on this very website for what it is Mike. You can then defend your position in public and we can let the public and our peers judge who is right and who is behaving correctly.
You are refusing to participate in a public debate off the pages of this website are you not?
Answer the question please Mike. Yes or no.
So please answer my question:
Are you refusing to take this debate regarding your serious academic accusations against me off your own website and into the public forum in the form of a proper academic and scholarly debate – to be filmed, disseminated and judged by our peers and the wider public?
Yes or no?
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Reply from Mike Weale:
Dear Mike,
You have repeatedly demonstrated that the way that you deal with people who don’t agree with you is via mud-slinging and ridicule. You have repeatedly labelled anyone who disagrees with you, including myself, as either stupid, mentally deranged or deliberately deceitful – see for example your series of comments addressed to me starting here: https://patrickmatthewproject.wordpress.com/leave-a-reply/comment-page-5/#comment-853.
In the face of such appallingly insulting behaviour, why on earth should I agree to debate with you in public? Your mud-slinging is vicious enough when delivered via webpage comments, goodness knows how much worse it will be in a live confrontation, when your hackles are up.
No, the evidence is clear. A live debate with you would simply expose me to your mud-slinging insults at first hand, and would be the very opposite of illuminating.
I urge you accept my offer to debate with you on the pages of this website, and to adopt a debating style that concentrates just on the facts and the interpretation of the facts, and not on your vituperative opinions of your opponents.
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Reply from Mike Sutton
https://patrickmatthewproject.wordpress.com/leave-a-reply/comment-page-6/#comment-1203
So you are still refusing to answer the question with a yes or a no.
Even though no is your effective answer.
You refuse to answer the question.
Even where I show you that there is no point in debating with you on your own website because you refuse to answer questions. All you can do is to write, what is, with respect, an excuse about imagined mud slinging possibly coming your way. But you refuse to write yes or no as asked.
And by doing exactly that you once again avoid answering the very question you have just been asked.
That is a classical transparent very basic denial tactic. I don’t suppose you have studied denial tactics have you? I have. I intend to make the behaviour of Darwin scholars, in response to the New Data, subject to a research study in that very area.
So, let me just re-cap what you have written:
You are refusing to enter into a public scholarly debate with me in a university, or anywhere else whatsoever other than in the comments section of a website that you totally control. You will not engage in debate with me – not even to defend the serious academic allegations you have made about my research – other than than in the comments section you control on your own website. Therefore, to be absolutely clear, you are refusing to debate your accusations against me before an academic audience where that debate would be filmed for the world to see because you – as you have plainly stated above – fear I will sling mud at you. You are refusing to do so despite my polite public invitation to you to do so because you are in a “mud-slinging” state fear of me. Despite the fact that the invitation is to engage in a scholarly debate in a scholarly setting in a public forum to discuss facts in relation to the serious academic charge you have levelled against me..
You have refused to debate the facts with me anywhere in the world other than in the comments section that you control on your own website where you systematically (as fully evidenced by the data in the comments section here) refuse to answer questions and where you claim that facts are not facts and where you claim that what is literally written does no mean what is literally written and clearly intended to be understood as it is literally written, and so on and so forth..
Now for yet another hard and proven discomfiting fact for your mud-slinging fears about how you think I am likely to behave in a scholarly public setting before an academic and public audience.Namely, that unlike you, my dear Mike, I have debated the “New Data” in several highly sceptical public venues before audiences who have very pointedly and at times very aggressively questioned my research and my findings and my conclusions. I have answered every single question in all such venues very civilly to the compete satisfaction of the chair and audience at every such open presentation and I have never, once not ever “slung mud” as you claim you fear I will now now as your new excuse for failing to face me in a public filmed venue.
I have no reason to sling mud Mike. Because I have facts to sling. Lots of facts, “the New Facts”, uncomfortable facts. The facts that you are refusing to engage with outside of your website comments section which you completely control. Those facts are peer reviewed and in a science journal here: http://www.nauka-a-religia.uz.zgora.pl/index.php/pl/czasopismo/46-fag-2015/921-fag-2015-art-05
Most importantly, let me put your purported fear of mud slinging at rest with reference to relevant facts. I have presented and debated the “New Data” facts of my scholarly findings without any dreadfully fearful “mud slinging” ever. Not anywhere. To date and in total that includes the following public venues:
1. “Internet Dating With Darwin”. Edinburgh International Science Festival. Edinburgh Skeptics Society. April 10th.2014
2. “The Hi-Tech Detection of Charles Darwin’s and Alfred Wallace’s Great Science Fraud”. British Society of Criminology Conference. Liverpool University. July 10th 2014
3. “A DREADFUL DISCOVERY: BIG DATA PROVES WALLACE AND DARWIN COUNTERFEIT DISCOVERERSI”. Conway Hall Sunday Lecture. Ethical Society. London. July 27th 2014.
4. Teesside Skeptics in the Pub 2 October 2014,
5. Sheffield Skeptics in the Pub 25 May 2015.
6. “About Patrick Matthew”: Meeting with the children and teachers of the Junior Carsonians: 17th March 2016
6. “On Charles Darwin and Patrick Matthew: Have we got the wrong scientist on the back of the English £10 note/”. The Rotary Club. Perth. Scotland. 17th March. 2016
7. “The 100 Per Cent Proof of Darwin’s Lying Plagiarising Glory Thieving Science Fraud” James Hutton Institute Lecture 17th March 2016
So what are you really afraid of Dr Mike Weale? Imaginary mud? Is that it? Is that what I am to tell journalists who inquire about you now – that I am to tell public audiences where I am present and clearly not slinging mud that you make serious and unevidenced accusations about my work, but when invited to put up or shut up that you fear to face me in public because you think I will sling mud at you on camera where my behaviour will be filmed for posterity? Really? Mud?
Is it that not an irrational type of academic Mysophobia Mike? The morbid and irrational fear of dirt?
Is that it? Is that, with respect, the best excuse you can come up with?
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Reply by Mike Weale
Reply by Mike Weale
Dear Mike, I wish your mud-slinging was imaginary, I really do. Since you insist on evidence, here it is.
https://patrickmatthewproject.wordpress.com/leave-a-reply/comment-page-5/#comment-853
In reference to my behaviour: “Willful self-serving refusal to recognize context: Risible Delusion, Bias, Irrationality, pseudo-scholarly cherry picking, Darwinist agenda driven bias, dishonesty.”
In reference to my behaviour: “Willful self-serving refusal to recognize context: Risible Delusion, Bias, Irrationality, pseudo-scholarly cherry picking, Darwinist agenda driven bias, dishonesty.”
https://patrickmatthewproject.wordpress.com/leave-a-reply/comment-page-5/#comment-857
In reference to my “clearly biased agenda”: “But given the context you are simply exposing your dreadful bias.”
In reference to my stupidity and/or dishonesty: “Only a stupid person would honestly think – or think otherwise but disonestly claim – otherwise.”
In reference to my “clearly biased agenda”: “But given the context you are simply exposing your dreadful bias.”
In reference to my stupidity and/or dishonesty: “Only a stupid person would honestly think – or think otherwise but disonestly claim – otherwise.”
https://patrickmatthewproject.wordpress.com/leave-a-reply/comment-page-5/#comment-866
In reference to my “daft as a brush” notions: “Postmodernists – including the newly evolved – it seems – post-modern Darwinists – seek to do intellectual mischief, which is caused by their daft-as-a-brush postmodern notions that nothing is certain or objective and that all “truth” is simply a subjective social construct … I would argue that’s exactly what you are doing Mike”
In reference to my “daft as a brush” notions: “Postmodernists – including the newly evolved – it seems – post-modern Darwinists – seek to do intellectual mischief, which is caused by their daft-as-a-brush postmodern notions that nothing is certain or objective and that all “truth” is simply a subjective social construct … I would argue that’s exactly what you are doing Mike”
https://patrickmatthewproject.wordpress.com/leave-a-reply/comment-page-5/#comment-871
“Unfortunately for you Mike, you are yet again being dishonest with yourself (presumably once again “accidentally” – like (presumably) all Darwinist dishonesty.”
“Unfortunately for you Mike, you are yet again being dishonest with yourself (presumably once again “accidentally” – like (presumably) all Darwinist dishonesty.”
https://patrickmatthewproject.wordpress.com/leave-a-reply/comment-page-5/#comment-884
“My definition of institutional stupidity – formed from observing your arguments Mike: “Strict adherence to denying the existence of your own group’s disproven beliefs by making irrational arguments from fear of looking stupid.” The question now remains – “Are ALL Darwinists desperately stupid when cornered by the truth of their stupidity?””
“My definition of institutional stupidity – formed from observing your arguments Mike: “Strict adherence to denying the existence of your own group’s disproven beliefs by making irrational arguments from fear of looking stupid.” The question now remains – “Are ALL Darwinists desperately stupid when cornered by the truth of their stupidity?””
https://patrickmatthewproject.wordpress.com/leave-a-reply/comment-page-5/#comment-889
“Mike, I’m afraid you appear to have an incurable case of “Loudon-Naturalist-Blindness”.”
“Mike, I’m afraid you appear to have an incurable case of “Loudon-Naturalist-Blindness”.”
https://patrickmatthewproject.wordpress.com/leave-a-reply/comment-page-5/#comment-1016
“It creates what Wurmser nicely calls ‘Pseudo-stupidity.’ And we have seen plenty of that on this website in various attempts to spin the obvious significance of the new facts into a comfort blanket of denial that they have any significance at all”
“It seems to me – after reading Stanley Cohen’s excellent book “States of Denial: Knowing about atrocities and suffering’ – that such biased scholarship creates an enabling environment for all kinds of dangerous quackery and claptrap, as well as a dysological pseudo-scholarly soup in which hate crime can grow and flourish.”
“It creates what Wurmser nicely calls ‘Pseudo-stupidity.’ And we have seen plenty of that on this website in various attempts to spin the obvious significance of the new facts into a comfort blanket of denial that they have any significance at all”
“It seems to me – after reading Stanley Cohen’s excellent book “States of Denial: Knowing about atrocities and suffering’ – that such biased scholarship creates an enabling environment for all kinds of dangerous quackery and claptrap, as well as a dysological pseudo-scholarly soup in which hate crime can grow and flourish.”
Of course, what you write about me within the pages of my own website is tame compared to the mud-slinging you indulge in on your own websites, where Darwinist-bashing is the order of the day – for example:
https://www.bestthinking.com/thinkers/science/social_sciences/sociology/mike-sutton?tab=blog&blogpostid=23217
“Darwinists are members of a Darwin worship cult with absurd ideas”
https://www.bestthinking.com/thinkers/science/social_sciences/sociology/mike-sutton?tab=blog&blogpostid=23217
“Darwinists are members of a Darwin worship cult with absurd ideas”
http://patrickmathew.blogspot.co.uk/2015/09/the-postmodern-darwinist-much-good.html
“Is the Patrick Matthew Project a Darwinist postmodern project? Is it evidence of an anomalous Darwinist flight from science and reason on the question of Patrick Matthew’s right to be considered an immortal great thinker and influencer in science – with full, complete and appreciable priority over Charles Darwin?”
“Is the Patrick Matthew Project a Darwinist postmodern project? Is it evidence of an anomalous Darwinist flight from science and reason on the question of Patrick Matthew’s right to be considered an immortal great thinker and influencer in science – with full, complete and appreciable priority over Charles Darwin?”
Now the first thing I’d like to say is that all your accusations are false – I’m not stupid, I’m not mentally deranged, and I’m not wilfully deceitful. The second thing I’d like to say is that even if I were stupid or mentally deranged, then calling me this still amounts to disgracefully insulting behaviour – perhaps even more so if it were true. The third thing I’d like to say is that you’re never going to win your arguments by attacking your opponents in this way – you will win them (or not) by the strength of your evidence and your interpretation of that evidence, not by mud-slinging.
There is still time for you to change your behaviour Mike, to apologise for your past aggressive and insulting online behaviour and instead move to a model where you argue the facts and the interpretation of those facts, rather than resort to mud-slinging whenever someone disagrees with you.
I repeat my invitation, and I urge you to accept it, to debate the facts and the interpretation of those facts here within the pages of PMP. If you pose one of your previously unanswered questions, I promise I will answer it now (provided it isn’t “Are ALL Darwinists desperately stupid when cornered by the truth of their stupidity?” or one of your other previous insulting questions of that nature).
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Reply by Mike Sutton
Reply by Mike Sutton
My Dear Mike
Again you seem not to be able to comprehend the plainest meaning of what you read.
As I have explained several times, here on your own website it is not possible to have a rational academic debate with you, because you simply refuse to respond to certain questions and you deny the obvious meaning and context of the most clear and simple text.
Now here is what I think is the real reason you will not debate with me before an audience. It is, with respect, I think, because you deny what every audience I have presented to so far (see above list) admits are Darwin’s lies about the the prior readership of Matthew’s book. You claim that what everyone else can see are lies are not lies. And yet it is you who writes of “Alice in Wonderland fantasies” – presumably that does not breach your own Alice in Wonderland rules on your own website about your own protocols of what is acceptable comment about others? Whatever the case, I am glad that I am allowed to use the term “Alice in Wonderland” and Rabbit Hole” – of course these are in fact the terms I used to explain the thinking of Darwinists on the “plagiarism problem” in my interview with journalist Daniel Engber for his article “Who Will Debunk the Debunkers?” which I shared with you (see earlier comment above).
I wonder what you really fear any sane and rational and honest audience will say to you outside of your rabbit hole website Mike? Those plain and simple lies whch you proclaim are not lies, are here in a blog post about John van Wyhe deceiving the Scottish press: http://patrickmathew.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/insanely-jealous-dr-john-van-wyhe-madly.html
It is also impossible to hold a rational debate with you on your own website because, for example, after arguing endlessly that there cannot be such a thing as an analogy of differences you then fail to admit that you are wrong when shown the Oxford Dictionary definition of analogy. I asked you to apologize for systematically failing to admit your error on several occasions in the comments section here, but you are apparently “blind sighted” to what I wrote – or else you are, apparently, being – with respect – dishonest, or perhaps there are other explanations that a psychologist can provide? Perhaps those are all mysterious unwritten PMP House Rules forbidden conjectures?Just in case that is the let me use the use the one your own example proves is OK – perhaps it’s all simply your “Alice-in Wonderland” behaviour?
The reason for your “blanking” of such facts might well have a psychiatric or psychological explanation, but let’s leave that to the experts and speculation of the armchair Einsteins of the Internet shall we? I would, with respect, suggest, an Alice in Wonderland academic delusional dishonesty will do: “What more disconfirming facts!” “off with their heads!”. As you can see I am abiding by your “Alice in Wonderland” is an OK criticism example here.
What a relief you used it first. Otherwise you might have taken the head off my reply and deleted it down this rabbit hole!
What a relief you used it first. Otherwise you might have taken the head off my reply and deleted it down this rabbit hole!
Now, my dear Mike, with respect etc, you also refuse to accept that disconfirming facts for your belief are facts, because you deny that what sir Gavin de Beer and Ernst Mayr wrote (see above link) was meant to be taken literally, as it was obviously literally written and intend it be interpreted in academic texts so as to convince readers of the veracity of the now debunked “tri independent discovery paradigm of natural selection”.
I expect that despite explaining these facts of your, with respect,”Alice in Wonderland” behaviour to you that you will be “rabbit-hole” blindsighted to them and once again ask me to apologise for criticising such “Red Queen” behaviour and to debate with you ad infinitum on your “rabbit hole” web site.
The trouble is, my dear Mike, that the definition of madness is to endlessly repeat the same behaviour whilst expecting a different result.
I now have the answer, which I must now be compelled, by your answers here, to give any journalists and forthcoming university and other audiences. Thank you.
When I present the facts of Darwin’s lies and the credulous parroting of them by de Beer and Mayr etc I will explain that you think it’s all an Alice in Wonderland Supermyth and John van Wyhe thinks it’s a silly conspiracy theory.
I will in future direct journalists and audiences and my readership to your comments to your own website (I have them all archived should they ever disappear) and you will, unfortunately, be judged accordingly. Me too, of course. I am very happy with my comments and I stand by them all and I am happy to present my research findings to the public via lectures and peer reviewed papers and books etc.
I will explain that despite my best attempt to get you to debate with me in an academic lecture in a university setting of your time and choice – with as many supporters as you require – where your silences and interpretations of literal text and meanings can be questioned by an academic audience, and by members of the press and wider public – that you refuse to accept through your admitted fear you will be ridiculed by me on video camera for the world to see.
I will, of course be referencing your comments and, with respect, excuses in my future written work on this topic – on the denial tactics of Darwin scholars.
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Dr Mike Weale's unremarkable metamorphosisWant to know why Darwin Scholars deny that peer reviewed proven lies are lies? Why they deny that what is literally written means what it literally says. Why not "Go ask Alice down the rabbit hole?" And good luck trying getting a rational or honest reply.
Alternatively, read the MacDarwin de facto Corporation explanation - Here
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Regarding his published accusations against me and my research, the only excuse provided by Dr Mike Weale for his continued refusal to engage in an open public scholarly debate, in a university of his choosing, and at any time of his choosing, and with as much assistance and support from his colleagues, associates and contacts as he requires is that he fears I will ridicule his scholarship on the same topic. How very weird - oops!